How to Negotiate a Raise (and the Promotion): 3 Strategies With Kathryn Valentine

Heather Monahan [0:00] Hi, and welcome back. I'm so glad you're here with us this week. We've got a really great show for you today. We've got Kathryn Valentine. She's nationally recognized expert on how women advance their careers. A top rated speaker, her clients include JP Morgan, KPMG, and Bain, and her TEDx talk on women in negotiation reached number one on TED.com. That is huge. I'm so happy for you. Her work has been featured in Harvard Business Review, the Wall Street Journal. and Fast Company, Kathryn started her career at McKinsey and Company and now lives in Atlanta with her husband and two active sons who keep her negotiation skills sharp and her coffee consumption high. I feel you on that one, Kathryn. Thank you for being here.

Kathryn Valentine [0:41] I am so excited to be having this conversation. Thank you for inviting me on. Thanks for the opportunity.

Heather Monahan [0:47] Oh my gosh, of course. I'm happy to do it. So I haven't done a negotiation show in a while, and they've been some of my most successful shows. As you and I were talking about before, my listeners love getting real tactical advice from experts that they can apply back. to find some level of success in whatever it is they're doing. Tell us a little bit about how you became a negotiation expert. How did someone become that?

Kathryn Valentine [1:12] Well, it's interesting, because in listening to your story, I always appreciate how you're like, and then I got fired, so I did all these other things. I… negotiated, you know, one of the biggest negotiations of my career, and it went so poorly that I was escorted out of the building. Um, totally unbeknownst to me, like, I spent weeks preparing for this. I did everything quote-unquote right, and yet somehow managed to end up in this situation, and so. I was in a very fortunate position because I had a year of business school left and I went back and for an entire year all I studied was how to negotiate specifically as a woman, which a lot of times can actually be different and people weren't really talking about it at that point in time. So that's how I came to this work.

Heather Monahan [1:56] Wow. You know, I still… it's not often that I hear people, um, talking about specifically negotiating as a woman, so you were really… you were addressing your own challenge, your own problem that you were having, and how were you able to start figuring that out for yourself so that you could apply it to you first before you started teaching others?

Kathryn Valentine [2:15] So, it turned… so, when all this happened, I went back to my negotiation professor, who's extremely famous, she's incredible, and said, hey, can you help me understand, like, what did I do wrong? And she said, well, we don't know yet, but there's a couple of researchers at Harvard, Georgetown, and Carnegie Mellon that are working on that, you should go talk to them. And so went down that rabbit hole. And what researchers were discovering at that point in time was that you're at a significantly higher risk of backlash in gender non-congruent negotiations. So when a man negotiates flexibility, he is at a higher risk of backlash. And when a woman negotiates resources, so basically any workplace negotiation we're going to do. We're at a higher risk of backlash. The good news is there's a solution to that. But the reason why I'm so passionate about this is because that solution isn't talked about very often. And so if you were just to look up, how do I negotiate, a lot of that advice is. presented as if it's a gender-neutral skill, but we actually know from research that it's not.

Heather Monahan [3:17] Wow, that's so interesting to me. And something just made sense. You know, I will work with a lot of different people around many different situations that could occur. And I was working with a client probably a month ago. And I had just… Chris Voss has been on my show a number of times, and…

Kathryn Valentine [3:36] He's so amazing.

Heather Monahan [3:38] Of course, he's amazing. However, what's interesting, and it makes a lot of sense what you just said to me, which is that I was sharing some of Chris Voss's negotiation tips and some prompts to help my client, okay, apply these and this is going to help you in this situation.

Kathryn Valentine [3:38] So good.

Heather Monahan [3:54] And she was having a really hard time with it. And I said, finally, I said, you know what, if it just doesn't align with how you feel, let's not force it because that isn't the only way to negotiate. There's other ways that we can, you know, try a different approach. And when we did try a different approach, she felt more comfortable, which then made her more confident, which then she was able to go advocate for herself in a way that I don't think she was going to if I had only given her that. Chris Voss strategy. Not that his strategy isn't great, but it's not for everyone. So what does the research actually tell us about that?

Kathryn Valentine [4:27] So what I love about your story is everything that you said is backed up in the research, right? Which is that the room will look at me as a five foot four woman differently than the room will respond to Chris. And because of that, negotiations can… should be different in different contexts. And so, what we see from research is that women are at a higher risk of backlash in gender… again, gender non-congruent negotiations, which are negotiations for resources. We also see most recently that women are now negotiating at work slightly more often than men are, like 2% more often. Yeah, this is Laura Cray out of Berkeley, but, and this is the kicker, Heather, we're still only successful half as often as men are. Which tells you, from a research perspective, that we've actually done a really good job of socializing that, hey, negotiation is part of how we work, right? It's like networking, it's like communication, it is a daily business skill. We have not done a good job of sharing gender-specific tools, which is why I'm so grateful that that's what we get to talk about today, because it's really hard to get your hands on them. If you aren't a researcher at an academic university.

Heather Monahan [5:37] So what are some of those tools or best practices that you put into play with the people you work with that you see some success with?

Kathryn Valentine [5:46] So there's three. One is think holistically. The second one is ask relationally, and that's what my TEDx was about. And then the third one is, you know. Have a conversation collaboratively. We say discuss collaboratively. any of those they're really gender neutral, like any of them work for anybody. However, they have an additional benefit for women that they virtually eliminate that risk of backlash, which means that one you can go in and have a conversation and know that if you hear a no, it's just a no, it's not a no that comes with. You're no longer invited to the meeting after the meeting where the decisions are really made. You're no longer quietly sidelined. You're no longer. you know, any of those things, escorted out of the building. Um, but also, women report feeling more authentic when they negotiate this way, so they're more likely to do it. So they're more likely to negotiate, and they're more likely to be successful, and that's why we like to talk about these three tools.

Heather Monahan [6:40] So can you break each one of them down so that we can apply it to an example so everyone can understand how they can use it?

Kathryn Valentine [6:45] Yeah. So the first one is think holistically. And what that's about is when you have an opportunity to negotiate — and Heather, having listened to your episodes before, I know that this is just almost secondhand for you. But when you have an opportunity to negotiate, you don't just ask for one thing. broadly about what the negotiation can be about. So a lot of people, when they think about negotiating at work, automatically think about salary. However, there are all kinds of we have a list of 76 things you can negotiate. By the way, the gender gap in. Stock options is 80%. It trumps the gender gap in salary. So if you want to think about something to negotiate, stock options might be something you want to think about. Yeah, that's research from the Wall Street Journal. The gender gap in performance bonuses is 72%. That's research from Robert Walters. Everyone — Heather right now is just losing her mind. There's all kinds of gender gaps out there. And the ability — listen, systematically, we wish they weren't there. But the ability to negotiate gives you a tool that you can use. So I have seen people negotiate for dedicated conference rooms. Promotion is a huge negotiation we do, obviously. The resources that you have to get the job done, when the deadline is, who gets credit for that idea? Uh, if you get to travel with the executive team, all of those things are negotiable. So, step one, think holistically, right? Think about a vast universe of things you can negotiate.

Heather Monahan [8:07] So think beyond just the percentage increase in base pay, which is what most people focus on.

Kathryn Valentine [8:13] Yeah, and actually, Heather, the point I love about this is if your goal is purely financial, you would actually want to negotiate promotions and not raises. Because even if you get promoted a year faster, the raise that comes with that promotion is so much bigger. So this is Claudia Goldin's work, who won the Nobel Prize two years ago. Um, but she shows analytically that if you can get promoted even just a little bit earlier each step of the way, at the end of the day, you have significantly more than if you had just negotiated a raise every year.

Heather Monahan [8:42] Wow, that's so — so with the promotion, the title, you're —.

Kathryn Valentine [8:44] Oh.

Heather Monahan [8:48] going to just all of a sudden jump up and pay without having to ask for it?

Kathryn Valentine [8:52] Well, you want to ask for it as part of that promotion negotiation, and they go together hand in hand, but at a lot of corporate America, because of the pay bands, if you can negotiate yourself up a little bit, then you access a different pay band, so the ceiling is even higher on what you can make.

Heather Monahan [9:05] Interesting. I did not know that. Okay. That's a great tip right there. Thank you.

Kathryn Valentine [9:06] Isn't that fascinating? Okay, so step one is to think holistically. Do you want me to go to step two?

Heather Monahan [9:13] Yeah.

Kathryn Valentine [9:14] Step two is to ask relationally. So this comes from research showing that, as a woman, if the person you're negotiating with sees that… believes that what you're asking for is both legitimate and beneficial, then you can virtually eliminate that risk of backlash. The problem is, when you tell really busy people, like I'm sure all of your audience members, hey, don't worry about it, just make sure they think it's legitimate and beneficial, like, you don't have time to figure out what that means. And so what put us on the map, and what the TEDx is about, is a formula that allows you to do that. And so the formula is, it's called the relational ask formula. Step one, talk about your past performance. Step two, talk about shared goals that you and everyone in the room would want. Step three, make your ask. And then step four, stop talking. Because we found out that women are so wonderful that we'll negotiate against ourselves just to prevent other people from feeling uncomfortable. Yeah. Would it help if I do an example on that formula?

Heather Monahan [10:12] Yes, I'd love an example.

Kathryn Valentine [10:13] Okay, Heather, what do you want to negotiate? Give me anything.

Heather Monahan [10:18] Well, this is interesting. And I don't know if this is the right example, but the first thing that popped into my mind was back when I was in corporate America, I wanted a board seat at the company that I was a chief revenue officer for. And there was one woman on the board.

Kathryn Valentine [10:29] Cool.

Heather Monahan [10:35] 30 years older than me. I mean, they needed me on that board. It was very clear to me, and I felt very strongly about it. And I pitched myself every single year for, I think, the last four or five years I was there and never was awarded. Now that I'm outside of it, I understand why I was being blocked by the woman that ended up firing me, and she did not want me on the board. And so there was zero chance I was going to get it. But I didn't know that at the time. So what could I have done differently? I guess I was leaving an open loop, basically. They'd say, you're doing great. We're so proud of you. All right, we'll take this under consideration. And nothing would happen.

Kathryn Valentine [11:09] So in there, I think you have three different things. One is, let's talk about the ask, which honestly, given your intuition, I bet was pretty similar. But we should talk about it just to show the formula. Two is the… when you get no, what do you do? And then three is, one of the things I see a lot in my client work is sometimes somebody is roadblocked, the negotiation… they… listen, expect a no the first time, it just kind of happens, but if you get a no, like, three times in a row, something's going on, similar to your situation. And what I find, it still blows my mind, but the vast majority of the times that people end up, quote unquote, not being able to negotiate, they find out six months later some piece of information that made it clear that that situation wasn't going to be one they could thrive in anyway. The company was going through a hostile takeover, and no one had talked about it yet. Their boss was sexist. Like, there's all kinds of things, but it comes out later that, like, actually, we're really glad that you didn't negotiate that job, because it would have been a bad spot for you. So… I've taken us off course. Let me answer your question using the formula. So the formula for you would have been something like past performance. As you know, as Chief Revenue Officer, I have X, Y, and Z. In order, my sole focus is delivering as much impact as I can to this company. And in order to continue leveling that up, it would be really helpful if I was in the room where the decisions were made so that I can understand the logic behind what's happening and where we want to go. That way I can deliver more impact. In order to do that, I wanted to talk to you about having a seat on the board. What do you think? So that's kind of how the formula would lay out. How do you feel about that, Heather?

Heather Monahan [12:45] Yeah, I think that sounds like a great pitch and similar to probably how I approached it. But here's where it gets dicey or here's where I didn't realize what was happening. At the time I was meeting with my boss at the time was the COO.

Kathryn Valentine [12:50] what you did.

Heather Monahan [13:02] Um, and he was a man, and um, and we had a great working relationship, and worked together for years, and he adored me and the results that I delivered. So he would always say, you're doing incredible, and I'm so proud of you, and I couldn't be happier. Keep doing the work that you're doing. I will bring this to the board, or whatever bluff it was, because now I know it was a bluff, but. you know, I'll bring this to the board. We will definitely, um, discuss this. I'm very clear on what your goals are and what you want, um, but I need you to give me some time. Sure, okay, great, no problem. I would say, you know, thank you for hearing me out. I appreciate that, and I'm sure you're going to advocate for me. And that's where it would die.

Kathryn Valentine [13:38] Which is really, from a research perspective, pretty interesting, because research shows that men with daughters are some of the best allies. However, his daughter was close enough to your age, and in the same company. That it sounds like he kept thinking that he could change her mind, but he couldn't.

Heather Monahan [13:57] No. Okay, so this is a dynamic. He is the brother of the daughter. So the CEO was much older and he wasn't around very often at this point in time. His son was running the company as COO.

Kathryn Valentine [13:59] Yeah, yeah.

Heather Monahan [14:12] His sister is CFO. And what's interesting, he does have a daughter who's much younger than me, who he has a great relationship with, who I had a great relationship with. So did he probably think he could convince her? Probably. He probably thought over time, which obviously did not happen. And then shockingly, she —.

Kathryn Valentine [14:15] Okay.

Heather Monahan [14:30] went backdoor and advocated for herself as CEO. And when the timing came together, you know, she it was a it was shocking to everybody.

Kathryn Valentine [14:39] What a coup! Okay. Wow! OK, so that was the second one is to ask relationally and I think to ask relationally and try for it to not be the future CEO's brother. Such a crazy story.

Heather Monahan [14:55] Yeah, so just the nepotism is what got in the way there, that that was not surpassable. Okay.

Kathryn Valentine [15:01] Yeah. And then the third one is to discuss collaboratively. So, a… combative negotiation is a gender-stacked game that we're not set up to win, because it goes so against societal concepts of gender that people's, even just like our lizard brain, has a hard time comprehending it, right? And I can give you all the research back to, like, when babies are 18 months old. I'm happy to go deep into that, but to save you the time, the kind of takeaway is… when we negotiate competitively, that is something where we have quote-unquote something to overcome. And if that feels authentic to you, rock on. If it feels authentic to you, you're actually probably going to be pretty good at it. But if it doesn't feel authentic to you, it's going to be really hard for you to do well in a negotiation that way. And so the other way you can use. is a collaborative negotiation, which is, hey, what do you think? Or, how can we close this gap? Or, how can we make that happen? And now we have an exchange of information where we can reach an agreement.

Heather Monahan [16:01] Again, very interesting because you're bringing up all these memories for me from back in corporate America that I don't really think about very much anymore. But what you just said about getting argumentative, this was another conversation. It wasn't the same one around the board seat. I was asking for a pay increase or a percentage override increase, some type of bonus. It was monetary. And I remember it was he and I alone meeting. Again, great working relationship. Everything was good. My performance was great. Things are amazing. And I said, I don't remember exactly what I said, but I said something to the effect of, as you know, we all had taken a pay cut a couple of years earlier during the recession, or there was some reason that everybody had to — by the way, everybody actually didn't. In the end, which is another interesting negotiation, someone negotiated, nobody else kicked back but this one man. It was such an interesting example to me of we all took the same pay cut, even the CEO, all of us, and unilaterally as a company, one person kicked back and he got it. And it was just, and now again, it wasn't public knowledge at the time, it was kept very quiet, but that lesson for me was so interesting that. just because they say everybody's gonna do it, or this is something we don't do, doesn't mean that actually is the case, and that happens much more often than people realize. But in this one instance, I was sitting down with him and discussing, it was probably year-end, like, right around the time now where budgeting is starting to get approved. And I knew that because I was in all the budget meetings. And I said, I want to make sure that we bake this into a line item. For next year. And he said he was under a lot of pressure at the time because our revenues weren't increasing. The margins weren't where they want them to be. And he knew that we need to get them there. And so he basically said to me, I just don't see how I can make that happen. I said, yes, you do, because I sit at that table with you and we can bring this forward. We as a team can do this together. And as he started kicking back harder on me, it just… you know when you've been in a situation too long with people that aren't… treating you the way that you feel like you should be treated. So I was reacting to a lot of different things instead of that conversation in the moment, which, again, was, you know, more juvenile than I think I am now, but I was reacting instead of responding, right? When you respond with class and grace, you can do so with pausing and manage your emotions. I wasn't. I was getting very angry. And so as my level of upset grew, which probably also had to do with the board seat situation and him ignoring me, I started raising my voice. And so as I start and I never raised my voice with him because we were. two closest friends, and I started raising my voice, and I said, you don't realize what you're doing, you're backing me against a wall right now. And so I started almost threatening him, you know, in an… you know, like, basically saying, like, I don't think you want to go down this road, buddy, if you're not gonna come… if you're not gonna stand up for. I'm going to be sitting there with you. We can do this together. I need you on my team, and I need you to be the person advocating for me. If you're not going to do that, I think you're making a very, very scary choice for yourself. And so in a way, I was insinuating I'd leave or something, or maybe I wouldn't perform at the level. I don't know what I was insinuating. And as I did that, Kathryn, he elevated his voice, and he really… I mean, his back stood up tall, like, he had never responded to me, and we ended up arguing. And he walked out. The GC came in because he went into the other office and I guess said someone else is going to have to deal with her right now because I said I want answers and I want to know, you know, and again, I was pushing, pushing, pushing. And then the GC came in and she was coming at me so hard. But in the end, I'll tell you, it was. one of the most emotional and awful exchanges that I'd had. And it was, it didn't end beautifully. I didn't get, you know, I ended up getting some type of bump, but it was not even close to what I had asked for. And the bad blood that I felt between us was.

Kathryn Valentine [19:59] Yep.

Heather Monahan [20:01] The worst part.

Kathryn Valentine [20:02] So what the research would say about all of this is we are raised with societal concepts of gender. From a very young age, boys are raised to exert their power on the world around them. So you build up these blocks, you knock it down. And girls are raised to be others focused. Your baby doll cries, you feed it. These are our… these are societal concepts of gender that are basically in the water we drink. I have them, you probably have them, we all kind of have them. Um, what backlash is, and… what backlash is, is when somebody doesn't act that way, we, on a very base level, get scared. If I can't… if I can't… rely on you to act X way, then what else in this world can I not rely on? This is a very unsafe space. And so what they see in studies is when you bring children into like babies, nurseries, or when you bring people into babies, nurseries, and they act in a gender non congruent way. Babies as young as 14 months old will cry faster, longer, and harder because the world is no longer predictable to them. So this is just so ingrained in who we are. Of all the studies I've looked at, the one that blows my mind the most is these researchers brought in children into their labs and had the children color little pages. And when they were done, bring it back to the researcher, and the researcher said, thank you so much for your work, what do I owe you? And then gestured over to, like, a basket of stick. And what they found is that 8 years old, little girls would ask for 40% less than little boys. And the researchers said, why are you asking for that number? And the little girls all said something along the lines of. Because I don't want to upset anybody. And so what you had with your boss in that moment was an escalation that even if he couldn't articulate it, scared him because all of a sudden the world isn't predictable. And by the way, backlash is enacted on women just as often by other women. Right? This isn't necessarily, like, men are mean to us. It's like, this is in… this is just in how we're raised. Um, and so, it's always, you know, what happened to you was both igniting that, and also, honestly, this intuition we have that something there is scary. So, in addition to it not working the way that you wanted to, a lot of women will then report, and I didn't feel comfortable doing it. Like, even if it had worked the way I wanted it to. It didn't feel congruent with who I believe I am. And that's another part that we want to… like, we want to be able to… for you to be authentically successful, not successful because you have become inauthentic to who you are.

Heather Monahan [22:24] And this is so interesting. This is just a whole now gender conversation. But it's interesting. Well, I don't know a lot about research, which obviously you are an expert in. I know a lot about business and in real life situations like this because we've lived it.

Kathryn Valentine [22:37] Absolutely.

Heather Monahan [22:39] It's interesting to me as I'm thinking what you just described. I was very, very masculine for a large part of my career. Very aggressive, hit hard, very direct. And I've been told by so many men I've worked with, you're intimidating. But I was always getting results. I would get such great results. And you can't really argue with results. And, well, apparently you can get fired for it eventually. But to my point, I was very masculine at work. And I look back now, and it was. later in my career that I started becoming more feminine at work and realizing there was power to being feminine, which I hadn't really understood. The things you're explaining right now, I didn't know any of this. I had no idea that, you know, he would feel unsafe if I was attacking him in some regard. That was one of my strategies when I was younger as a manager and leader, is I would hit real hard to let people know, don't you dare mess with me because. you need to do what I'm asking you to do, and this is the way it's gonna be. I mean…

Kathryn Valentine [23:41] So that works better when you're… less advanced in your career. As you're more advanced in your career, it becomes, uh, people see it as too much power hungry, and it freaks them out. Now, the other thing I'll say is, if you look at, sort of, negotiation research, there's two buckets. One is deal negotiations. In deal, women are exceptional negotiators when we are negotiating on behalf of others. So we're actually better with equal training and experience. We are better deal negotiators than men. We get better results. Exactly. Your eyes are getting big. Because that's an others-focused negotiation. And also in deal negotiations, there's things you can do to emphasize that you're negotiating on behalf of someone else, right? In self-advocacy negotiations, which is what we've been talking about, sort of negotiating on behalf of yourself for. an employer or something like that, that's where the backlash comes in, because it's different from what people would expect. People expect us to be the others' focus. They expect us to negotiate for the team or the company or the kid. They don't expect us to negotiate for ourselves. And so that's where it gets a little more nuanced.

Heather Monahan [24:49] So where would the power be for a woman? This is so bad that I relate more to being a man right now. It just makes no sense. But because I had so many years behaving that way, that would be my default. But now that I know better than that, where would the power be for a woman in negotiating differently? And how does that look different where a man could be very hard and aggressive? What would the strategy be for a woman?

Kathryn Valentine [25:13] In deal negotiations?

Heather Monahan [25:14] Yes.

Kathryn Valentine [25:15] To emphasize the whole, we want a deal that everyone is happier with than no deal, or to emphasize the other. So, when I became an entrepreneur, I immediately set up a board of advisors. which was like my mentor and my next door neighbor, right? But when I was negotiating with a multinational company, it was, hey, I'd love to do this deal, but my board of advisors won't let me because the price is so much lower than other deals we've done, and they maintain that we need to be fair across all of our clients. Can you help me close the gap? Because I really want to work with you. Right? So that is how we can take a negotiation that's like a deal negotiation and make it about… feel like it's others' focus. Like, I'm negotiating on behalf of you at this point in time.

Heather Monahan [25:58] Okay, but, alright, number one, that sounded really good, that, that, I mean, that sounded like, when I'm listening to you, I'm like, I'm like, yeah, that, I, I would say yes, yeah, I, I would agree with you, that will work. Um, here's a.

Kathryn Valentine [26:10] Yeah.

Heather Monahan [26:10] When does that diminish your confidence, though? Because when I'm hearing you say that, that would be very hard for me to say to me because I kind of feel like it's make believe. However, it's going to make the other person feel more comfortable. And they do want to help. And I see what you're saying. And I see that it would work. But at some point, I would also be questioning myself that, I know, but Heather, you don't need to outsource your power to somebody else. You could just say, that's not going to work for me. So how do you keep your confidence level up and achieve? the negotiation style that's going to work.

Kathryn Valentine [26:43] This is rapidly becoming my favorite interview I've ever done because you're so great at all the real life thing. Yes, what we do in research is great. It's helpful. But at the end of the day, it only matters if it helps you do the thing you need to do tomorrow or today. So, in what you're talking about. One of the keys to being an effective negotiator is feeling authentic in what you're doing. And up to this point, a lot of the tools that have been given to us, sort of in your toolbox, are… from a male point of view. They are not based on research and gender. And so the goal here is just to give you three more tools for your toolbox, and you pull out what works for you, right? So I worked with a woman who was in the armed forces for a long time, and she is more comfortable and confident being aggressive, and it works for her. because she's more confident and comfortable being aggressive, and so she can pick up different tools. So, to your point of, like, but I don't feel good about that, then don't do it that way. You know, we have a gajillion other tools we can… we can pull to. The point of, kind of, our conversations is just to double the number of tools you have available.

Heather Monahan [27:49] And then do you suggest testing and trying? Do you suggest practicing? How do you actually prepare beforehand?

Kathryn Valentine [27:57] So actually, this is where I think AI is really great, because you can do a bunch of test runs with AI, right? My boss is this type of person, and we're negotiating tomorrow, and this is what he's, I don't know, or she's going to be doing right beforehand, and this is what's on their mind and the company level. And then, honestly, you can. setting and just have a negotiation and think about, like, how did it feel to you? Did you like that one? Let's try a different way. Do you like asking it this way better? What obstacles might that other person come up with? How do you think about that? So it's a really good partner to test, to dry run all of those things. Without it being like in the moment, the one time you're going to have the shot.

Heather Monahan [28:32] That's exactly the right way to use AI, and I'm so glad you brought that up. I talk about it all the time, but having AI ask us questions so we get smarter, we get better, that instead of defaulting our mind to AI. So I love that you had that as an example. It's a great example. So everyone, if you have some… negotiations coming up, leverage AI to go back and forth so that you can practice beforehand. It will only help you and give you some different angles and allow yourself to know how you feel when you're actually saying those things, which what Kathryn was just explaining, that's really where your power is. Okay, so when you… work on all of these negotiation strategies. Have you ever looked at or found information when a woman is negotiating against another woman versus a woman negotiating against a man, and which approach works with who?

Kathryn Valentine [29:22] This is the most popular question I get asked. And when I went to do this research, I expected that I would have two different strategies based on who I was negotiating with. it turns out it's really based on who I am, and that's what dictates your strategy. So you only have one strategy. What we see is that backlash is enacted. by both genders, by all genders. And honestly, anecdotally, the more extreme backlash is women on women, not men on women. Yeah, Heather's nodding. We all kind of know this. Yeah. And so the good news is you don't need to tick through a gajillion different options based on who you're negotiating with. You just negotiate based on who you are and what you're — I say most comfortable negotiating is always going to be a little nerve wracking, but it's nerve wracking and you feel OK about who you are at the end of the day.

Heather Monahan [29:52] We know that one. I love what you said. So it's really about what aligns most with the real you, and you're deciding that ahead of time when you're alone with yourself and you're being real, not reacting in front of somebody, which is an epic fail. What you just mentioned, that advocating for yourself and negotiating can be one of the hardest things for people. my ex-fiance was an MLB agent, and so I was able to see, through years of him negotiating, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars of contract with the biggest athletes in the world who are so confident, so talented, and yet… They would struggle to ask for anything for themselves. And it's so interesting, whether it's sports at that level or business. I have seen so many people crumble when it comes to having to ask for themselves. Why is that?

Kathryn Valentine [30:56] It's because, so even if you take people who have spent a full semester studying collaborative negotiations, when you say, okay, now ask for something for yourself, it's like our brains immediately default back into this winner-loser, you know, if I'm happy, then I've made you miserable, or if you're happy, then I'm miserable, kind of mentality, sort of a winner-take-all. And what we want to do in these negotiations is we want to flip that from you versus me to us together versus the problem. And the problem is anything that prevents you from delivering the impact you're capable of, right? That's a problem for you, it's a problem for your employer, it's a problem for your company, whatever it may be. And I think that at the most fundamental level, a lot of us have a hard time with negotiations because we… that's when you have to look yourself in the mirror and say that you agree with what you're worth.

Heather Monahan [31:47] Ooh, that's a big one. It goes back to self-worth and worthiness and being real with yourself. And I like that idea where you just said, look in the mirror. And truly, when I was younger, I would do that to practice. I would look in the mirror to do it.

Kathryn Valentine [31:49] Scary moment, right?

Heather Monahan [32:03] And it's not always easy, but when you get through and it becomes easier, then you show up as a more competent version of yourself, because you're really speaking to yourself that you are worthy. So, guys, that is a great exercise to go through. First, you've got to sell yourself on you first, that you are worth. This raise, promotion, whatever it may be, or ask of any type, and then realize, let the chips fall how they may. I'm going to practice. I'm going to use these strategies that I learned from Kathryn. I'm going to work with the AI ahead of time. I'm going to get real uncomfortable with myself that I am worth it. Things go in that negotiation, then I'll make a decision based upon what I'm going to do next and move forward. And like you said, you've got 76 different items that somebody can negotiate on. So there's endless opportunity. But at the end of the day, first you need to see your worth. And then you need to take a look at if the people you're working with see your worth as well.

Kathryn Valentine [32:58] Because if the people you're working with don't see your worth, then you're never going to be as successful as you're capable of there. The one other thing I'll say is. A new study came out showing that AI is advising women to ask for 40% less than it's advising the same man in the same background. And the reason is because AI is a bias in bias out system, right? It gobbles up more information than I can even conceive of, but it just spits that back out. And so if you're going to use AI to benchmark what you're worth. Please ask it to correct for gender bias or just check that number with your network. The other thing we find with women is we're not very good at figuring out what we're worth, but we're excellent at figuring out what our friends are worth. So just imagine like you're advising someone who's a friend of yours with your same background, same experience, what would you tell them to ask for? And that can be a quick mental correction.

Heather Monahan [33:45] And/or your child. I mean, because I know for me, any time that I'm up against something hard that I'm thinking, oh my gosh, can I really do this? I don't know. I say to myself, what do I want my son to be when he grows up? And I say — it autocorrects me. No, I would want him to go for more. I want him to push boundaries on it because he's so worthy of that. Well, then I have to start showing up.

Kathryn Valentine [33:47] Ugh!

Heather Monahan [34:06] that same way if I want him to replicate it.

Kathryn Valentine [34:08] Heather, I'm really excited to try that trick because I feel that with you.

Heather Monahan [34:13] Yeah, no, you have two boys. I mean, and those are the biggest — when I was going to — I was asked to speak in the Middle East a couple of years ago. I've been many times since. But that first time, I was so scared to go. And I was questioning why I was going. And everyone's telling me not to do it. And I was so full of fear around it.

Kathryn Valentine [34:15] You do?

Heather Monahan [34:32] And I remember I had to stop and pump the brakes and say, what would I want Dylan to do? And I thought to myself, I would want him to move through life without fear and choose to see fear as a green light. That means go and go faster. And just because other people can't do it doesn't mean he can't. And once I had that pep talk with my son that really wasn't sitting in front of me. I knew that's what I need to apply back to myself. And then I ended up having the most incredible trip. I've been back a multitude of times since then and taken some of the biggest stages in the world. As a result of that, it would have never happened if I let fear stop me. So yeah, that hack of speaking to our own children, it works every single time.

Kathryn Valentine [35:08] Yes, and also, you're one of the best hype people, so you have an episode on unlocking your potential, it's one of your confidence classics, and I listened to it before I got on a stage that I… Wanted to be on. There were a lot of people I could help from that stage. However, it was the biggest stage I'd ever been on, right? And I just like that. You have such a unique ability to help us connect with our own confidence that. I appreciate all the tricks and tips.

Heather Monahan [35:34] Oh, thank you so much. And I'll tell you, and I love that you just said, guys, when you're scared to do something, like Kathryn just said, she's afraid to get on stage. She made it about the people she could potentially help. When you do that, and this is the best hack, especially for speaking or putting yourself in an arena that you're not familiar with. And I did it when I was in Saudi Arabia. I kept saying to myself, if I can just help one young girl out there, just one, I know that I did my job and I know I can change the world because that one girl could do something different than she ever knew was possible. And so that's what drove me on the flight. That's what drove me out to the arena. That's what drove me onto the stage. And… and wouldn't you know, it ended up that there was one girl that I helped, and a year later, I saw her, and she started her own company, and it was… it was… I'll never forget that situation. So, just… Stop making it about yourself, and start making it about the one person you can help, and suddenly the fear dissipates, and that momentum takes over.

Kathryn Valentine [36:28] And I think negotiation is the same, right? If there's these things that are blocking you at work from delivering the impact you're capable of, that's a problem for the company, too. I worked with a woman who wanted to be promoted, she was in sales, and when they gave her the promotion, she tripled her conversions, because up to that point, the people that she was talking to saw her level and were like, you can't deliver on what you. promising us. They didn't say it out loud, but they thought it. And then all of a sudden, at a higher level, they were like, oh, this is a representative of the company, we have faith in her. She needed the credibility to do what she was capable of.

Heather Monahan [36:58] That's so interesting. I just had a client I was working with last week tell me that she doubled down on her website, said, you know what, I think I'm playing too small, spent a ton of money on it, so she really up-leveled on her outward appearance, you know, through the site, and within 30 days, she doubled her fees as a result of that.

Kathryn Valentine [37:11] Mmhm.

Heather Monahan [37:18] it's just so interesting to look at when the way that we show up, package ourselves, you know, appear to others, can directly affect. how we are paved.

Kathryn Valentine [37:29] Mm-hmm.

Heather Monahan [37:31] It's unbelievable. There's so many things to look at. OK, tell me — one of the questions that I wanted to get into is, what is more expensive over a career, hearing no or never asking?

Kathryn Valentine [37:41] Never ask him. So the quick facts on it are, one is never negotiating is like leaving a million dollars on the table over the course of your career. That's Linda Babcock. Now, obviously, that's very sensitive to how much you make. So Margaret Neal at Stanford did another version. shows, mathematically, that choosing not to negotiate is equivalent to having to work an additional 8 years to retire with the same wealth. So it's a very expensive choice.

Heather Monahan [38:08] And how does someone know, because I hear especially from women about this, when it is OK to negotiate or when it's not? And I know that you hear this too. When people are worried about AI, and I don't know if my job's safe anymore, and I don't want to push back because I don't want to — it's easy to get rid of somebody today, and I don't want to be unemployed. How do you advise someone that it is safe to negotiate?

Kathryn Valentine [38:31] I completely understand where those concerns are coming from, right? I was raised by a single mom. If she lost her job, we were kind of screwed. Um, what I will say is that every negotiation is unique, and so these… a lot of these things that I hear are, it's not a good time for this reason, this reason, this reason. Sure, globally, but what about for you specifically? So one of the negotiations I've worked with is a woman who was in a company where they did massive layoffs. and her boss was laid off. But she was still able to negotiate a 20% increase in pay, because they asked her to do her boss's job, and they were paying him 50% more than they paid her. Right? On the other hand, had she taken the role without the raise, she wouldn't have been able to move closer to the office and get more childcare, so she wasn't going to be able to deliver in the way that she was capable of anyway. Her hands would have been tied. And so, a lot of these things are. packaged together in that we are more successful when we are equipped to be more successful.

Heather Monahan [39:30] Oh, that's so good. It just reminded me of my line that I would always say to my old boss, which was — and this is any boss that I had in my career. I would always — I would advocate for myself a lot, and I would ask for a lot. And any time that they would kick back and say, I mean, this is ridiculous, you're always asking for more, I'd always say, I know, does that make you so happy because you know I'm doing that to you for me? You know what I'm out there in the world doing for you on behalf of our company? I think you'd be a little disgusted if I didn't come in and pitch you. I said, you know what? In fact, I'm going to start pitching you more often on me. And it would always end up in a very — he'd say, gosh, I guess you're right. I mean, OK, fair point. Keep the pitching going more the other direction. But I got what you're saying. But people do have to realize that. when someone allows somebody to treat them poorly, after a while, you're thinking, I deserve better than this. I deserve a spouse or a partner that's stronger, right? And then you end up leaving the relationship. It's no different when you have an employee that never asks for anything and is always hiding. You're thinking to yourself, what value does this person add versus someone. who's truly advocating with poise and, you know, and reasoning behind it, I would always pick the person that's out there pitching for more.

Kathryn Valentine [40:41] Well, and the beautiful thing about negotiating this way is because we know from research that if you negotiate this way, the chances of backlash are virtually eliminated. It means that you can negotiate. And even if you get a no, it's, hey, it's raining outside. That wall is blue. No, we can't do that today. It's just a piece of information. It's not a big deal the way it historically has been for women when we've heard a no at work. It's historically came with some level of backlash.

Heather Monahan [41:06] How do you advise people when they're very nervous before a negotiation? Do you have any fear or nerve-breaking tips to help them?

Kathryn Valentine [41:16] So my favorite one is that when you go in — so first of all, the average negotiation is 25 days. So people expect that we're going to solve the whole problem in this one 60-minute meeting. Usually you're not, and that's OK. 25 days average negotiation because these matter. But the thing that we find that I love is that when women go into a negotiation with a reward planned immediately after for being brave enough to make the ask. they have better results because they're primed for happiness. So, Heather, you're my boss. I'm coming in to ask you something that I'm really nervous about, but I know that immediately afterwards, I'm going to finish my workday and go get a glass of wine with my girlfriends at my favorite place. now I'm thinking about how excited I am to see them. Oh, I just need to have this conversation with Heather, and then I get to go see all my friends, right? And so it allows your brain to have a little bit of a distraction, but it also primes you for happiness.

Heather Monahan [42:10] What do you mean by primes you for happiness?

Kathryn Valentine [42:12] It means you're already thinking about yourself in a positive light, and you bring that into the conversation. Your energy changes if you can focus on that reward immediately afterwards.

Heather Monahan [42:21] Guys, that is so important, what she just said. I mean, changing your energy can change everything, because if you come in from a place of fear, if you come in from a place of lack. it can be construed as negativity. It can be… you can bring the energy in the room down. I mean, all of these things impact the outcome in a very negative way. So I love that tip, and I love that idea of priming your mind for positivity.

Kathryn Valentine [42:48] Ooh, I'm going to call it that, positivity, not happiness. I'm stealing that. That.

Heather Monahan [42:52] Please steal that. I'm happy for you to steal it. OK, so what's a piece of research that you haven't shared with us yet that you need to drop on us before you go?

Kathryn Valentine [43:11] The biggest mistake that I see women make in negotiation is that they wait until their back's against the wall. And when your back's against the wall, you don't have. the right energy, you don't have the right choices. And so the thing that everyone says, that Chris says too, Chris Voss, is you're only as good as your strongest alternative. You're only as good as your strongest backup. When your back's against the wall and you don't have a backup, you're not going to optimize your negotiation. And so I think that what we see in the research, especially around advancing your career, is the more you can think of negotiation as an everyday skill that you, you know, want to be good at, the same way you're an amazing communicator or great at. whatever else. The more you can think about it that way, the more impact we see it having on not only your career, but just your well-being, right? Is the electrician coming when it's convenient for him, or convenient for you? Are you getting credit for that idea because you said it, or is someone else getting credit for it? All of those little things impact your daily stress, and we can negotiate. a decent amount of them away.

Heather Monahan [44:10] So how do you set somebody up to really — I see it almost like a game. But I think of sales in a very similar way that in every exchange somebody is sold, I'd rather have it be the other person. I can't wait to take this game on today and find out if I can sell him to take me out to dinner tonight or he's going to sell me on staying at home. So how do you get people to put that into practice with these little micro negotiations?

Kathryn Valentine [44:34] I say start where you're most comfortable. Some people love to go straight to the big negotiation. It gets their adrenaline running. They're excited about it. If that's you, rock on. After I was burned, I started teeny tiny negotiate. I would negotiate, try to negotiate something, a discount at something on the grocery store. Like, that was… I was so scared. Like, that was as big as I could get. And I would start at the grocery store, and then I did it every now and then at restaurants, and then I did something small at work. But start where it's just a little bit above comfortable to you, and go from there. Build your confidence that way.

Heather Monahan [45:06] It really makes such a difference because those little micro moments when you start seeing the wins and saying, oh, I like how that felt, or we both walked away super happy after that. That was, oh my gosh, it didn't have to be scary, or I didn't have to have an argument. So often people think it has to be an argument. What are some other approaches other than just being collaborative? that can help someone understand you're not arguing with another person, you are negotiating.

Kathryn Valentine [45:33] I think one really good tip is to take breaks when things get too heated, or when you need to, right? It's easy to be like, hey, I need to run to the restroom, let's pick this up in a couple minutes, or hey, you've mentioned a couple things that I didn't know, and this is an important decision, I want to get it right, so why don't you give me a little bit of time to think about it, and can I come back to you next week, or next Wednesday, or. But if things get heated, taking time can get them back on track.

Heather Monahan [45:57] When you look back on when you lost that negotiation and got fired, what was it that you did, quote unquote, wrong, or what went awry that you would have fixed and done differently today?

Kathryn Valentine [46:03] Uh-huh. So, a couple years ago, um, if you were, you know, searching how to negotiate better, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal where a negotiation expert said, just go into the room and say, I deserve to be promoted. I took advice that was along those lines. Now, it was 10 years before that article came out, but the advice was much more around aggressively advocate for yourself. And that not only didn't feel comfortable for me, but did not go over well. And so, that was the mistake that I made. What I didn't realize is that it was a gendered mistake. I didn't understand the role that gender played in negotiation that I just had felt, but needed to think about a little bit more.

Heather Monahan [46:51] Wow, that is so unbelievable. But this also shows, guys, you can… quote unquote "fail at something" and then become an expert in it in the future. And that to me is just so — I think that's so exciting. Any situation can be an opportunity for growth. We all start as a beginner at some point and certainly figure things out by making mistakes. But that didn't prevent you from having one of the most publicized and viewed TED Talks. I mean, that's incredible. Were you questioning yourself along this journey, or did you just have clarity and felt called to do it?

Kathryn Valentine [47:28] Yeah, I… I was lucky because I felt called to do it. I mean, I do think this also goes back to the way that I was raised, but, um, I think a lot of times in this conversation, it's either, oh, let's act like that doesn't exist, we all negotiate the same. Or it's, well, we don't need to put more on the women, we need to change the system. That can also be true. But at the very basis, like, I want to give you tools so that your life is easier tomorrow. Like, I cannot wait however many years for all of the world's woes to be corrected. And I think once I hit upon this and I realized that it could be a way that I could help other people that I cared about, it became something I really enjoyed doing.

Heather Monahan [48:07] I feel like you know your life's calling when you just have that clarity because I'm sure there's been scary moments. Like you said, taking that stage that day, there's always going to be those moments to go to the next level in anything and become an expert in something. It seems daunting and impossible, but when you truly feel called to do it, that clarity drives you. So congratulations on figuring that out. It's amazing.

Kathryn Valentine [48:31] Thank you.

Heather Monahan [48:32] Okay, so what else do we need to share with everyone listening right now? What's a final negotiation tactic or detail that we don't want to miss?

Kathryn Valentine [48:44] You know what, the big one we should talk about is for anyone who wants to learn more, who wants to access that list of 76 things you can negotiate, if you go to 76things.com, so 76T… H-I-N-G-S dot com. You can just download that list for free. This is, again, 12 years of trying to learn as much as we can and putting it all in one place so that people can actually get it instead of only relying on networks to transmit it. So that's one thing. The other thing is, if you're a part of a women's organization, consider recommending me as a speaker. Like, this is how we're actually getting the information out right now. There's no place you can go on the internet where it is. It's really just these conversations. So, Heather, thank you so much for letting me talk to you about this.

Heather Monahan [49:27] Oh, my gosh. I can't — it's just unbelievable. Sometimes it shocks me. I would think — thankfully, we were connected together, right? Or I wouldn't have known any of this information. The world is such a busy and noisy place that so much is not heard, even though people think that we have all the information. It's right at our fingertips with AI. But like you said. Too often, people don't even know this situation. And I, thankfully, that you're teaching this and bringing this information and research forward so everyone can get better and be more knowledgeable. So thank you for doing it, Kathryn. Tell us how we can find you. How can everybody consume more information from you?

Kathryn Valentine [50:04] I'm on LinkedIn. It's the only social media I'm on because I'm a nerd and old, and that's all I can handle. But you can also go to my website if we have courses on negotiation. We have a course on getting promoted. If any of that stuff is helpful, it's worthmorestrategies.com.

Heather Monahan [50:19] Oh, and let's share one more piece of information with them. Why is Q4 so important to be the time to pitch and advocate for yourself at work for wanting more?

Kathryn Valentine [50:22] Yeah. Heather, I'm so glad you brought this up, because when you were telling your story about advocating, you mentioned that you did this, and I want to call attention to it. The biggest mistake people make going into end-of-year reviews is they make their ask. at their end-of-year review. That is a problem, because a lot of times your bosses have to set budgets and make their plans before end-of-year reviews. So the best thing that you can do is, right now, have a conversation with your boss and say, hey, I'm thinking about annual reviews. At the annual review, you know, here's my past performance. Here's what I aspire to do. Here's what I want to ask for. You know. What do you think? And if there's a gap that you have, we want them to tease that gap out now, so that you can hopefully solve it by the end of the year. But we also want to get your name on the wait list for all the resources that they have to dole out, but they have to dole out before reviews. So, Heather, thank you for asking that.

Heather Monahan [51:16] And don't forget, guys, she's got a list of 76 things that you can negotiate for. I will have it in the show notes. Please click on the link. And don't just focus on only one opportunity for the promotion, for the pay, whatever it may be there. There are endless different ways to go about it. And as I mentioned earlier, when the entire company took a pay cut, still one person negotiated back and he did not. So no matter what you hear, that there's no raises this year, there's no negotiating this year. And I've heard all of that. Well, number one, you might be in an industry that is in decline. So pick your head up and go to an industry that is a growth industry. Make your life a heck of a lot easier. Or you could be working in a toxic work environment, which I did that too. So pick your head up.

Kathryn Valentine [51:49] Mmm.

Heather Monahan [51:58] put yourself first, advocate for you, and, you know, deploy these tactics that Kathryn's sharing with you, and understand that you can ask for more, because you are worth more, and if you don't ask, you will never get… a closed mouth does not get fed. So, Kathryn, thank you so much for the work you're doing, and thank you for being here today.

Kathryn Valentine [52:16] Heather, thank you for the opportunity. I really appreciate this.

Heather Monahan [52:19] All right, guys, check Kathryn out and check out that list. Again, it's in the show notes below. And until next week, keep creating your confidence. You know I will be.

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors.